US Citizenship Requirement

TimePants · 04-25-2008, 01:59 PM

For most american citizens, the only thing they ever did to earn their citizenship was to be born here. To immigrate here and become a citizen you need to pass a naturalization test.

I feel that the same or similar test, or at least some form of civil service, should be required in order be be a US citizen.

Towkthi · 04-26-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimePants

For most american citizens, the only thing they ever did to earn their citizenship was to be born here. To immigrate here and become a citizen you need to pass a naturalization test.

I feel that the same or similar test, or at least some form of civil service, should be required in order be be a US citizen.

That would never happen in a million years. In fact I would be willing to wager that no country in the world has an equivalent system.

TimePants · 04-26-2008, 03:19 PM

Thats the way it should be though.

Oxll Sunslayer · 04-26-2008, 03:59 PM

What if someone's kid (assuming 18 years was the test age) fails this test? Does that mean their retarded son/daughter has to leave the country?Or would there be some born in america immigrant status?

Seems harsh. Only test I think that should be done is by elected Presidents and Prime Ministers. Lets see if those people actually have a brain. Plus seeing Hillary leaning over to cheat off Obama would be priceless.

**Phooey** · 04-26-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

Only test I think that should be done is by elected Presidents and Prime Ministers. Lets see if those people actually have a brain. Plus seeing Hillary leaning over to cheat off Obama would be priceless.

Now that's a good idea. Anyone wishing to be President should be have to past the same test that someone applying for citizenship has to pass.

TimePants · 04-27-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

What if someone's kid (assuming 18 years was the test age) fails this test? Does that mean their retarded son/daughter has to leave the country?Or would there be some born in america immigrant status?

Then their kid can't vote or participate in gov't in any way, unless they do some sort of civil service for 4 years, like for example work in the Peace Corps or serve in the military.

TimePants · 05-10-2008, 08:14 AM

Jus soli does not exist in Switzerland, hence birth in Switzerland in itself does not confer Swiss citizenship on the child.
(Swiss nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, 18 April 2008)

Gwenchicken · 05-10-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

A person is a Swiss citizen at birth (whether born in Switzerland or not) if he or she is:

born to a Swiss father or mother, if parents are married
born to a Swiss mother, if parents are not married

How is that anymore official than being physically born in the country of nationality acccording to your logic of having to perform some sort of civil service to be a citizen?

TimePants · 05-10-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenchicken

How is that anymore official than being physically born in the country of nationality acccording to your logic of having to perform some sort of civil service to be a citizen?

All Swiss citizens are:

able to vote in political elections upon reaching the age of 18.
able to run for political office.
able to start and sign a petition or citizen's initiative for a referendum.
able to obtain a Swiss passport.
prevented from getting deported from Switzerland.
obliged to perform military service (men only).
(Swiss nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, 18 April 2008)

Gwenchicken · 05-10-2008, 04:20 PM

That's unfortunate.

TimePants · 05-11-2008, 09:21 AM

yeah it sucks when everyone has to earn their citizenship huh?

Oxll Sunslayer · 05-11-2008, 12:10 PM

Timepants you come from the military so I don't think you can see the regular point of view. Mandatory military service is something only necessary when a lunatic like Hitler or Bush are in power and your in their path of destruction. Even then military is not necessary. Way back in our primitive side is that angry, rageful monkey instinct. The military looks at civilians as people of lesser status then those enrolled in the military. I see it the other way around. All those jar heads are giving their lives for a bunch of old resource greedy politicians.

Military service would be ok if it wasn't run by such an old and corrupt organization. Not all people are cut out for war. For me there are two evils on earth, Military and Church are the two establishments that endorse evil. Resources and money are not more important then peoples lives, but your government sees things differently, why the hell would anyone want to fight for america?

TimePants · 05-11-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

Timepants, you come from the military so I don't think you can see the regular point of view. Mandatory military service is something only necessary when a lunatic like Hitler or Bush are in power and YOU'RE in their path of destruction. Even then military is not necessary. Way back in our primitive side is that angry, rageful monkey instinct. The military looks at civilians as people of lesser status then those enrolled in the military. I see it the other way around. All those jar heads are giving their lives for a bunch of old resource greedy politicians.

Military service would be ok if it wasn't run by such an old and corrupt organization. Not all people are cut out for war. For me there are two evils on earth, Military and Church are the two establishments that endorse evil. Resources and money are not more important then peoples lives, but your government sees things differently, why the hell would anyone want to fight for America?

Exactly what does this have to do with citizenship requirements?
Please try to stay on topic, and refrain from insulting people.

Oxll Sunslayer · 05-11-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimePants

Exactly what does this have to do with citizenship requirements?
Please try to stay on topic, and refrain from insulting people.

I should have included your quote in my reply to mandatory military service.

Citizenship requirements like the ones you speak about are taking away freedoms. I just don't think you'll find many people willing to support such an idea.

TimePants · 05-11-2008, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

I should have included your quote in my reply to mandatory military service.

Citizenship requirements like the ones you speak about are taking away freedoms. I just don't think you'll find many people willing to support such an idea.

Freedoms should have to be earned, not given away arbitrarily due to place of birth. Of course nobody supports this idea, save for a few people who understand that it's for the greater good, because people are lazy. Of course people would rather have something handed to them than earn it.

Think about it though, if citizenship was hard(er) to get. You would damn well be proud of your citizenship, and you damn well wouldn't have a shitty country. Problem is it's handed out to people who could give two fucks about America. People who just happen to be born on the US side while their parents are illegally crossing the border. What sense does that make?

Now it may sound very high and mighty of me to sit here and say "military service should be a requirement of citizenship!", but everyone else had the same opportunity to serve as I had. As for the disabled or those mentally or otherwise barred from military service, civil service should be allowed in whatever capacity they can perform it.

I don't see how that is taking away freedoms. Rather, the military service at least, ensures those freedoms by ensuring that nobody (by this I mean foreign governments through means of war) can take them away from you.

I agree with you that finding supporters is difficult, nigh impossible, as it stands now. It may become more palatable in the near future, seeing the way we're headed now what with "immigration reform" and "amnesty" for illegal immigrants. Hell, if the government or society/economy collapses, and there is a power vacuum, who do you suppose would fill it? The people in this country with the training and equipment necessary to take charge and keep order would.

**Princess** · 05-12-2008, 05:31 AM

Not everyone wants to serve their country. To put something in place like that now would cause a lot of people to move out of the country, and that would cause even worse financial problems for the US than what is currently going on.

In addition, hoping for a military state is a ridiculous thing to hope for. Point out a country where it was worked having the military run things.

TimePants · 05-12-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess

Not everyone wants to serve their country. To put something in place like that now would cause a lot of people to move out of the country, and that would cause even worse financial problems for the US than what is currently going on.

In addition, hoping for a military state is a ridiculous thing to hope for. Point out a country where it was worked having the military run things.

People who don't want to serve their country shouldn't be citizens then. And anyone who moves out because of it, I don't want here in the first place, and you shouldn't want them here either. And it would also cut down on welfare costs (probably entirely).

The best example that comes to mind of a stratocracy, or military dictatorship, would be Germany circa 1930s. The country went from having six million unemployed to having full employment. (Reason Magazine - Nazi Economics August/September 1999) Of course, the country fell due to costly wars, but had they not engaged in the wars, who knows what would have happened?

Oxll Sunslayer · 05-12-2008, 05:35 PM

Couple points here. This is for timepants just to explain how you want this system to work.

1) Just because i'm born in Canada, why do I have to become a canadian. I don't agree with half the policies up here, and I just want to be happy. I don't want to move from my home, since i'm territorial and would kill before being removed.

2) I pay taxes, and work within this society. Do the taxes I pay confer my status in this country? Or would I still have to serve in the military or write some test?

3) How would we prevent favortism. Ie. the prime minister and his family don't have to serve in military? The rich people who back the government, would they support sending their kids away?

There is only one thing I support here. That is putting those on welfare to work for the government. Free hand outs are ok, but once people begin to depend on those handouts that becomes a problem. Any person collecting welfare for more then a year, should have to do community service.

**Princess** · 05-12-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

Couple points here. This is for timepants just to explain how you want this system to work.

1) Just because i'm born in Canada, why do I have to become a canadian. I don't agree with half the policies up here, and I just want to be happy. I don't want to move from my home, since i'm territorial and would kill before being removed.

2) I pay taxes, and work within this society. Do the taxes I pay confer my status in this country? Or would I still have to serve in the military or write some test?

3) How would we prevent favortism. Ie. the prime minister and his family don't have to serve in military? The rich people who back the government, would they support sending their kids away?

There is only one thing I support here. That is putting those on welfare to work for the government. Free hand outs are ok, but once people begin to depend on those handouts that becomes a problem. Any person collecting welfare for more then a year, should have to do community service.

That is exactly what I wanted to say, but food poisoning prevents complete sentences that make sense and don't go on too long. Way to go. For real.

TimePants · 05-12-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

Couple points here. This is for timepants just to explain how you want this system to work.

1) Just because i'm born in Canada, why do I have to become a canadian. I don't agree with half the policies up here, and I just want to be happy. I don't want to move from my home, since i'm territorial and would kill before being removed.

2) I pay taxes, and work within this society. Do the taxes I pay confer my status in this country? Or would I still have to serve in the military or write some test?

3) How would we prevent favortism. Ie. the prime minister and his family don't have to serve in military? The rich people who back the government, would they support sending their kids away?

There is only one thing I support here. That is putting those on welfare to work for the government. Free hand outs are ok, but once people begin to depend on those handouts that becomes a problem. Any person collecting welfare for more then a year, should have to do community service.

Those are excellent questions, and I am glad you asked them. I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Question #1 - In the situation you describe, I am assuming Canada has adopted the policy I have been describing. In that case, you would not have to move from your home. Simply you would not be able to vote, hold public office, or participate in government in any way. You would not be eligible to collect welfare either. None of this means you have to move.

Question #2 - The taxes you pay are your "rent" to the government for living on their land. In order to be a citizen you would need to perform civil or military service for a certain amount of years.

Question #3 - Anybody who is in the government has to be a citizen, and has therefore served the country already. That fact should make your prime minister reluctant to give his family a free ride. But, it's only human nature, no government or society can be perfect. So of course there would be a little corruption.

As a side note, question 3 is of course hard to answer. There of course would be corruption. I'm not saying the system I am describing is perfect and free from human error. That would be ridiculous. I am just saying this would be a better way than we have now, in my opinion.

Edit - I have been thinking about question 3 for a while now, and I have another response as well. It wouldn't matter whether his kids went away to war or not, as you put it, because in order to be citizens they still need to have done civil or military service. So, simply, it would not matter.

Second edit - I think there is a general misunderstanding here. I am not saying there should be a mandatory draft. I am saying to be a citizen you need to do civil or military service for the government. You can still live in the country if you don't.

Oxll Sunslayer · 05-13-2008, 02:29 PM

Thanks for answering the questions. I like the part about the taxes equal to rent for living on the governments land (totally feels like they do this already). Thing is, if I didn't have a vote or say in things then i'd be more reluctant to pay taxes. Love to see how they would evict people from their homes

I still don't think your going to get many people on board with this one though. I know your thinking that some people may abuse their rights, but letting government become the parent in the situation is not the right answer. You know my stand point on government, I never like giving the government more power.

People should watch out for the fellow man. If someone is collecting welfare, do something to get him off it. Awhile back a friend of mine; healthy 19 year old caucasian male, started to collect welfare. My friends were all astonished the government would give someone in perfect working shape a welfare handout. We attacked him verbally, and coerced him to get a job. This won't fix every situation, but people can make changes without relying on their government. Let people have the power. Not the government.

TimePants · 05-13-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxll Sunslayer

Thanks for answering the questions. I like the part about the taxes equal to rent for living on the governments land (totally feels like they do this already). Thing is, if I didn't have a vote or say in things then i'd be more reluctant to pay taxes. Love to see how they would evict people from their homes

I still don't think your going to get many people on board with this one though. I know your thinking that some people may abuse their rights, but letting government become the parent in the situation is not the right answer. You know my stand point on government, I never like giving the government more power.

People should watch out for the fellow man. If someone is collecting welfare, do something to get him off it. Awhile back a friend of mine; healthy 19 year old caucasian male, started to collect welfare. My friends were all astonished the government would give someone in perfect working shape a welfare handout. We attacked him verbally, and coerced him to get a job. This won't fix every situation, but people can make changes without relying on their government. Let people have the power. Not the government.

I understand what you are saying here, but I think you have misunderstood something. This isn't about giving government more power. This is about deciding who can be involved in government. And there are no restrictions, so long as you are willing to perform military or civil service, and if you aren't willing to, then you probably shouldn't be involved in government anyway.

The government evicting people from their homes for nonpayment of taxes would be exactly the same as it is now.

It seems the attitude of most people is as follows, "I live in this country so I have a say in how it is run". Why? Just because they have been kind enough to grace us with their presence they have a say in what way the country is run?

But I digress. This would be a best for both parties situation. By that I mean, for those who do not want the burden of citizenship, and they don't want to have anything to do with the government, they don't have to be citizens. For people who do want to be involved, there is a clear path.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

Edit - By the way.
This isn't a set in stone system by any means. I am completely open to suggestions or criticisms. After all, I'm not a political person, I'm just some guy. Please, add some suggestions which you think would make this idea better.